LEAN Duluth
Know Your Candidates: 2022 County Sheriff Race
As promised following our
initial coverage of the St. Louis County Sheriff race
in the primary election, this release contains in-depth interviews with the two remaining candidates, Jason Lukovsky and Gordon Ramsay, about issues that are important to many LEAN members.
The hour-long interviews were recorded, and transcripts were generated using a transcription application. In the following analysis, we tried our best to represent the candidates' larger points. Quotes were edited for length and clarity, with every intention of retaining their meaning and representing the candidates accurately. Full transcripts and audio recordings are available below. Due to a technical problem the first few lines of Jason Lukovsky’s interview are not included in the audio file. Please refer to the transcript for these lines.
The analysis is divided into eight sections, which include responses from both candidates. Click below to jump to a section.
Insider/Outsider perspective
Because Lukovsky is currently the St. Louis County Undersheriff, some commentators see an insider/outsider dynamic in this race. We asked the candidates about their perceptions of this.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky discussed the difference between police departments and Sheriff’s offices, as well as ways he feels he is more progressive than current Sheriff Ross Litman.
“I am the only candidate that has experience with the St. Louis County Sheriff's Office or a Sheriff's office in general. The other two candidates’ experience revolves around a police department. Three of the biggest differences [between these institutions] is the fact that a police department normally is not responsible for any type of correctional institution, whether it be a jail or a lockup, which is huge. [...] The other two candidates don’t have experience in the [Department of Corrections] statutes, the 2911 stuff, and the 911 communication center. We dispatch countywide for over 280 public safety entities, two-hundred-and-some-thousand calls a year. [...] Lastly, emergency management.”
“I consider Ross [Litman] a friend and he’s promoted me five times. How am I different? [...] I would like to think that I am a little more progressive. [...] I realize the importance of mental health and the decriminalization of it. [...] I think there's an opportunity [for transparency] now that we are 100% fully implemented with our body cameras. [...] Right now we're trying to gather some information in terms of a real quick one month glimpse. Do we have any examples where those body cameras helped? Not only helped, maybe diffused a situation? Maybe it gave the person we were dealing with more of a comfort level knowing that we had them finally where we didn't before?”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay discussed how new leadership is helpful for an organization, and the importance of relationship building.
“When I went to Wichita [...] I learned the importance of crystal clear communication. If I wasn't crystal clear down there, they would fill in my blanks that I had left [with] what the last chief was like. [...] There is kind of an art to going into an organization from the outside and I learned a lot about that.”
“Sheriff Litman has been there for so long, it is a very entrenched culture. I think they still operate like they did 20 years ago.”
“I'm a relationship based leader. [...] I want to make sure that [the deputies] are getting to know the people that they serve, going to town board meetings, going to schools, saying hello, you know, making contacts when there's not a crisis."
“No jail policy”
In a July 21st Facebook post, Gordon Ramsay wrote:
“How will I reduce crime in our county? One of the first changes I will make will be to suspend the St. Louis County Sheriff's Office ‘no jail’ policy that does NOT allow police officers to bring a suspect to jail who commits misdemeanor crimes such as theft, property damage, exposes themselves or trespasses. I’m not aware of a policy like this in any similar sized counties in the midwest and I believe it is one cause of increasing crime in St. Louis County. It is creating an atmosphere of no accountability and is leaving victims without justice.”
We asked both candidates about their viewpoints on the purpose of jail, and when it is appropriate to jail someone.
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay added nuance to his earlier post by making it clear that he does not support mass incarceration. However, he maintains that police should have discretion to bring individuals to jail:
“My track record shows I'm not for mass incarceration. But I do think sometimes that when a warning or a ticket doesn't resolve an issue and criminal behavior continues, jail needs to be an option. For everybody's sake, not just one person's. I don't believe in filling up jails: it's one potential option, but it should never be the first choice. And that's the way I policed. […] There are some times where someone just needs to be removed for a little while for them to get their thoughts back together. Or to get them some help and resources.”
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky was previously aware of Ramsay’s Facebook post and started his response by clarifying that the creation or elimination of the “no jail policy” is not under the control of the Sheriff:
“First and foremost, it's not a jail policy. It is a judicial order by the court, which was signed by then Chief Judge Sally Tarnowski. Chapter 387 of the Minnesota state statutes states that the duties and responsibilities of a Sheriff is to enforce orders of the court. So if Gordon were to be elected, he would have to go to the court, to the Chief Judge, and have conversations to get rid of that order.”
Lukovsky stated that he sympathizes with Ramsay’s sentiment that it is frustrating when law enforcement cannot fix criminal behavior, but concluded that putting more people in jail is not the ultimate solution and creates more complicated problems. He emphasized that the Sheriff is also responsible for operating the jail, and therefore has many things to consider when jailing more people:
“I get what he's saying here. [...] We want to have a community where people feel safe. [...] I remember responding to calls with people who were continual 911 users, and you just wanted to do something with them, because you weren't resolving anything and it was just this revolving door. [...] We can't have contempt of cop, right? Just because you made me mad doesn't mean I bring you to jail for disorderly conduct. The other thing that he's not understanding is you are now responsible for the care and custody of all of those inmates. It's a duty and a responsibility to ensure that you're providing a safe environment for those inmates and your employees […] When you load [the jail] up with low level misdemeanors, two things are gonna happen. I gotta ship somebody out, and now that's taxpayer money. Or I have to release other people. [...] We're not focusing on the long term solution here. We are appeasing a certain small percentage of people by telling [them] you're gonna throw all of these people in jail.”
Harm Reduction
LEAN asked for the candidates’ stances on harm reduction practices. We asked specifically about syringe distribution and community concerns on the lack of adherence to Steve’s Law (also known as the Good Samaritan law) which provides legal protection to individuals who administer Naloxone and/or call 911 in response to an overdose.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky offered his reasons for supporting Steve’s Law.
“I support Steve’s Law. Again, it comes down to recognizing and accepting the fact and reducing the stigma of people with substance use disorders.”
Lukovsky discussed a new program under his supervision which provides St. Louis County Jail inmates with a Naloxone kit upon release. The program applies to inmates who receive Medication Assisted Treatment (MAT) for substance dependency. He also explained the decision to include syringes in the kit:
“We're going to choose to, where many jails don't want the syringe in there. We're going to, upon release, provide anyone who's involved in the Medication Assisted Treatment program an automatic kit, they don't even have to ask. [...] I think that's one example where I've shown my willingness to ensure that we're doing the best thing we can. [...] We've seen great success with that program. It's a commitment that we're going to keep going. So in terms of supporting syringe use or providing syringes, we're going to do everything we can and I would encourage that.”
Lukovsky also stated that while jail is necessary it is not the best option for those struggling with substance use:
“My personal feeling is not everyone needs to be in jail, if you're having any type of substance use disorder, jail is not the place for you. Do we need jails? Absolutely.”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay indicated his recognition and support of Steve’s Law, but did not expand on why he supports it:
GR: So the Good Samaritan Law, I was the co-chair of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police legislative group as well, I think I was even the president of the Chief’s Association when that came out and we supported it. And I do support it.
LEAN: Great. Was there anything else you want to say about that?
GR: No. [...] Part of relationships is when there's problems that people talk. [...] And if there were issues with an organization I was ever part of, I'd want to hear about it.
When pressed further about harm reduction efforts in the jail, Ramsay indicated that incarceration offers an opportunity for substance use treatment. He did not indicate that he was aware of current programs at the St. Louis County Jail.
“I don't know what exactly is going on with treatment at the jail, but as you know, 90-some-percent have some kind of chemical addiction issue. I would want to make sure that we are with best practices as far as trying to help people get clean. It's a great opportunity when someone's locked up to try and get them as much help as possible.”
Mental Health
We asked the candidates about their plans to provide their team with de-escalation training, mental health care for officers, and partner with community groups working on crisis response.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky emphasized the importance of mental health care for officers throughout his interview, addressing it before we asked this question.
“Another way I'm going to be different is understanding and recognizing the importance of the welfare of our staff. [...] Our staff is understanding and recognizing that we need to talk to people too. We’re humans. We face the same needs as people we help on a daily basis. I'm proud to say that during my time in the 911 Emergency Management Rating Maintenance Division, my lieutenant, who was under me, pioneered our peer support program. [...] So that's something that I'm going to be passionate about. I have numerous examples of friends that are dealing with PTSD. It's near and dear to me. [...] We're gonna continue to aggressively ensure the mental health of our staff.”
Lukovsky also discussed programs that are currently in place for de-escalation training, and his views on working with non-police crisis response groups.
“We're seeing the benefits of de-escalation and we're getting that training to them sooner rather than waiting. [...] It's only going to help them in their duties or the calls that they're responding to.”
“[I’m] understanding the importance of our organization changing the way we respond to calls or incidents. As a command staff we've talked about that. [...] Not everyone needs a police officer or Sheriff's deputy to their call. [...] If you're suffering from depression, you don't need me there. You need a mental health professional, and we as law enforcement [...] we also need to understand that. [...] At the same time, we have to understand that the people we're sending there may not be law enforcement and may not be trained in what I'm trained in. And we need to ensure their safety as well as they help us help the people.”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay first discussed programs he has been involved with to decouple police from mental health response, including his own experiences responding to people experiencing mental health crises:
“I would go on these calls and I would see that some guys [officers], you don't want them on your calls because they would make things worse. They'd escalate it and you didn't want them around. [...] There’s been a gradual, and actually over the last 10 years really rapidly increasing reliance on law enforcement to deal with social ills. [...] [Which] really culminated with an increase in police shootings. [...][In response to these issues] I sought funding for an embedded social worker. [...] It's evolved into co-responder methods and, you know, integrated care teams where it's not just police.”
When prompted on his strategies for mental health care for officers, Ramsay described how attitudes towards debriefing after traumatic incidents have changed during his career.
“When I started in Duluth, on your last night shift, you’d go over to Superior to drink, and that was your debriefs [...] [The] Fire Department started mental health debriefs and [...] wellness focus first. I remember, probably [in the] late 90s, we had a kid, a young boy that was run over by a garbage truck. And the surgeon came in, he said, ‘Okay, there's an opportunity to do a debrief with the Fire Department.’ And I remember one of the guys [police officers] he just laughed, he said, ‘Well I'm not gonna go sit with them and cry,’ and, you know, he made fun of it. [...] Well, now, the debriefs are very important. We have our own, no one laughs about it.”
Racial Bias
We asked each candidate how they plan to address racial disparities and ensure accountability in their work as sheriff.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky expressed a willingness to continue the first steps the Sheriff’s office has taken into bias training, and mentioned how DEI and implicit bias trainings have impacted him. (Note: Lukovsky’s answer was made under a time constraint, as the meeting was running over time.)
“I'm looking forward to the results of this initiative. I'm looking forward to their recommendations as to how we can get better. I've learned a lot about myself.”
“Firstly, it comes from the recognition that not everybody is like me, but everybody has their own thoughts and feelings and they’re okay to have. [...] I remember my very first cultural training years ago - we had it on the reservation, and Roger Smith worked with us and thankfully, he was Native. He was able to share his experiences with us. And I think we got more out of it because of it. And that's the importance of that equity and that inclusion. [...] I understand the office of Sheriff can be political, and I'm prepared for that. But these initiatives are being pursued at a countywide level and it makes it all that more important and easier for my division to address my people and say we're all in.”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay gave an example of his previous work with communities of color:
“I think back to how I got promoted early because of my relationships with communities of color. As I got promoted, I took on different ways of addressing things despite [them] not being popular decisions. I would work with our previous NAACP President and Board. I would invite them in to look at our school tickets for kids of color. [...] We did it for three or four years and had good discussions and I think it really allowed them access to see what we were doing and access to questions.”
He also shared his perspective on some of the contributing factors to racial disparities, acknowledging that traffic fines “fall along racial and income lines.” He gave the example of a community member who was driving without a driver’s license, who Ramsay chose not to arrest or fine because driving was necessary for him to make income. He emphasized the importance of discretion.
“There’s a lot of discussions [about] discretion that never [happen]. [...] For people like me that grew up not really having to struggle for money, when you write a ticket, [you may not realize] the impact that has on people. [...] I think most of our police officers want to make a positive difference and don't want to impact the community with disparities. [...] But we got to have the discussions and we got to look at the numbers and see what we can do to improve that.”
Repeatedly throughout the interview, Ramsay emphasized how the hiring process for police officers in Minnesota impacts diversity of the force.
“If you don't choose to become a police officer pretty much right out of high school, you have to go back to school. [...] it funnels people with the same personality types into policing in Minnesota. In Wichita, they would send you through the academy, but there was a wide variety of backgrounds. My first night I rode with an officer, he had a chemistry degree and worked with Dr. Pepper. His different experiences made him a very valuable police officer.”
Housing Insecurity
We asked the candidates about their stances on sweeps of homeless encampments, and how they would ensure that officers under their command will not further endanger people experiencing housing insecurity.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky discussed his experiences working with people experiencing housing insecurity, and how they dovetail with the Sheriff office’s emergency management responsibilities:
“I think that one is more of a philosophy that I would have. I think it goes well with [...] emergency management. From an emergency management standpoint [...] we're used to working with displaced people. [...] So my message would be: what's our plan if we do this? There needs to be a plan. You can't just displace these people. [...] Ultimately, I would say maybe as Sheriff it's a little easier because we live in rural areas and they don't create the burden or the perceived problem. [...] But when [we] did respond to those calls, [our] message was, treat these people humanely. Don't forget your own humility. We know nothing about them.”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay discussed his experiences in Wichita and Duluth, and indicated that he thinks sweeps of encampments are a bad idea.
“In Wichita we had a national model winner of a homeless outreach team with police and community partners, and much more robust than we had here. [...] I've also seen this evolve over my career. Working in the Hillside I used to move camps. And I would always give people warnings because oftentimes, it was private property. [...] It's really evolved into rather than just pushing the problem on, to [...] a more comprehensive view of what we can do to get people help if they want it. [...] You can't just throw people's stuff away, you can be liable for it and there's rules that we have to live with. And I don't think sweeps are even done anymore. It's a bad practice for the reasons you mentioned here.”
When asked about pressure from groups like the Duluth Downtown Council regarding people experiencing homelessness, Ramsay answered:
“I do believe there should be standards of conduct that are upheld, particularly in business districts. Everybody's got rights, including those that invest in areas. I understand it's a fine line. But some of the things I see downtown, I don't like some of the behaviors, the urinating in public, but defecating in public. I spent a lot of my career downtown and I worked really hard to keep the Skywalk safe. And I worked with a lot of homeless people. And I worked well with them to the point where I was friends with many of them, and some of them I even keep in contact with today. But I do think some of the Skywalk issues and some of the things that are going on, do need some attention. [...] We do need to maintain some type of order for the sake of business.”
Collaboration with corporations
We asked if the candidates plan to collaborate with corporations. We provided the example of law enforcement collaborating with Enbridge against protestors of Line 3.
Jason Lukovsky
Lukovsky first acknowledged the challenges of the situation: “The decisions surrounding Line Three. They were tricky. They were tricky. There was a balance.”
In regards to training, Lukovsky stated, “from my standpoint, we didn't collaborate in terms of training with Enbridge.” He stated that their staff already had riot training, and did not participate in training led by Raven, Embridge’s private security firm: “I wanted nothing to do with Raven.” However, he acknowledged that they did share intel. Lukovsky emphasized a desire to maintain some separation from Enbridge: “Again, I wanted to be able to say that Enbridge wasn't controlling me or our deputies.”
In regards to accepting payments, Lukovsky stated, “the decision to accept money from the PUC was also heavily thought about and at the end of the day for me, it came down to taxpayers.” He asserted that as law enforcement, their responsibility is to “ensure public safety […] ensure that constitutional rights are not being violated […] [and ensure the] ability to picket, protest, demonstrate.” He believed that for these reasons law enforcement had to be present at Line 3 protests, and accepting funding from Enbridge would prevent an undue burden on taxpayers: “So if I know I'm going to be there, why create an additional burden by St. Louis County taxpayers?” He also stated that smaller counties often request help from St. Louis County because it is “kind of (the) big brother in the region.” In his words, “I knew that would be scrutinized by our own taxpayers if we're removing resources out of our own community and […] not even getting paid for it.”
Lukovsky stated that it was important to him to consult legal counsel “to ensure that we weren't […] in collusion with the pipeline.” He also indicated that he valued being transparent about the reimbursement process.
He stated that if there are similar situations in the future with other issues, he would handle them in the same way.
Gordon Ramsay
In response, Ramsay acknowledged the authority that law enforcement holds in community relationships, but did not offer a perspective on financial relationships.
“Law enforcement with the authority they’re granted, you always have to closely watch your relationships. You know, we have relationships with retail stores over retail theft, different businesses for different reasons. I think [Enbridge] was sensitive in nature, for many reasons, but I don't know anything about an escrow account.”
We offered more context including details about the conflict of interest created when Enbridge financially compensated law enforcement. In response, Ramsay described his work as Duluth Police Chief to end unethical off-duty work.
“...off duty employment was a big issue back when I started […] it was really unethical. […] So we changed that and [in about] 2009 when I was chief, off duty employment had to go through the PD […] to ensure that […] they were working for the city and not this private employer. So that is an area that needs to be closely monitored.”
Ramsay also acknowledged the issue of police involvement with labor disputes:
“Most police departments have rules where you cannot get involved with labor disputes […] the way you resolve these issues is you work closely with people that have concerns and you find how you can work through these so that people are satisfied with your decisions, the direction.”
Transparency and workplace culture
LEAN did not have a question about transparency, but the topic came up in conversation with both candidates.
Jason Lukovsky:
We asked Lukovsky about the 2019 killing of Estevan Elioff by two St Louis County Sheriff's Deputies near Hibbing. He stated that he was Supervising Deputy of 911 Emergency Management Radio Maintenance at the time and has never read the case file. He also stated that the St Louis County Sheriff Department did not have body cameras at the time due to funding.
“In terms of our policy now, regarding body cameras, we're 100% implemented. There are stipulations within our policy that require the deputies to have their body cameras turned on. It's been made imperative in our trainings that if there are instances where body cameras are turned off, and it's proven to be in violation of policy, there will be a disciplinary process to address any type of shutting of the camera off.”
More generally on the topic of transparency and workplace culture Lukovsky said:
“I know when I go to work there's nothing for me to hide. I'm very open. I'm very honest. You're not going to see me wavering in the wind. I'm not a politician.”
“Your [criminal justice organizations like LEAN] input is going to be helpful to me figuring out how to be best transparent and move our organization forward. [...] The other thing I’ve seen in our younger staff is that they're different than what I was. They have some excellent social skills. And what I’ll say is, and this is maybe one of the things I'm most impressed with, they have more patience. That younger generation has more patience, and that's what “I'm trying to wrap my mind around. [...] So there's more of an opportunity for the younger staff to start interacting with our older staff who may be set in their ways. And having that influence rub off. So I'm excited.”
Gordon Ramsay
Ramsay mentioned the importance of having policies and budgets posted where they are publicly accessible, and emphasized his relationship-based approach.
“Making sure that policies and budgets will be online; they currently are not and it’s kind of closed. If community groups want to meet and talk about an issue, I'll be there. I'll be present and working in earnest to gain trust and make things better.”
“I'm a relationship based leader. I like relationships. I am not an office guy. I don't like sitting around the office. I like getting out. I like interacting with the community and I like knowing the people that I serve, so you'll see me out a lot more than you see the current chair.”
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